What was the real reason that El Diamante and Garces were moved into Division 1?

[Sideline]

What was the real reason that El Diamante and Garces were moved into Division 1? I would think that the Central Section would have wanted a greater chance of having a Division 2 team in the State playoffs. Moreover, why would the Central Section abolish the state school enrollment caps to place Garces, technically a Division 4/5 school with 580 students into Division 1 which previously had a recommended minimum of 1750 students?

[Sideline]

[valleyfan]

they moved up because they won just like Kingsburg and other programs. why is Sanger with almost 3000 students and a winning team still in Div. 2?

[valleyfan]

[Sideline]

Wouldn't less students equate to less Division 1 caliber players, less depth and therefore more injuries and concussions? Did the CIF consider any health and safety issues in making their decision? No opinion, just asking.

[Sideline]

[flexmac3]

What was the real reason that El Diamante and Garces were moved into Division 1? I would think that the Central Section would have wanted a greater chance of having a Division 2 team in the State playoffs. Moreover, why would the Central Section abolish the state school enrollment caps to place Garces, technically a Division 4/5 school with 580 students into Division 1 which previously had a recommended minimum of 1750 students?

I like Garces in D1, and EL D as well.
Garces being a Divison 4/5 school is funny.

[flexmac3]

[Sideline]

I like Garces in D1, and EL D as well.
Garces being a Divison 4/5 school is funny.

CIF Article 34 E (2) provides:

                                                                                                                                           
2)         RECOMMENDED MINIMUM ENROLLMENT FOR EACH DIVISION (To use for appeals...for Football ONLY)
              DIVISION1                           1750                                                                     
             DIVISION II                           1450                                                     
             DIVISION III                          1150
             DIVISION IV                            850
             DIVISION V                            550

It may be funny but Article 34 E (2) says otherwise.
 

[Sideline]

[Denver Viking]

Enrollment numbers for private schools aren't nearly as important as with public ones. Garces has more control on who attends and therefore doesn't need as high an enrollment to compete with D1 & D2 schools.

[Denver Viking]

[WHODATT]

Enrollment numbers do matter to a point at private schools. The ability to control which parents want to spend the money to send their student-athlete to a private school for a Christian education is always a struggle. Yes, you can look at rosters and say Garces has 35 guys on the roster and BHS has the same number, but there is still a huge difference in talent level throughout those 35 players. BHS dwindles their roster down from 100 kids to take the top 35 most athletic and coachable kids while Garces takes all 35 kids that come out. I think the real reason Garces was moved to D-1 was a reaction to the amount of wins they getting and by the score differential in those games. I think when you take a closer look at the last 5 years of Garces football, yes there was a lot of wins but not enough to warrant a move to D-1. I did a little research and over the last five years, here is Garces' record against division level opponents:
D4- 8-0, D3- 21-0, D2- 15-6, and D1- 4-8. Now at an enrollment of 580, Garces is a .700 win percentage team at D2 or a .333 win percentage team at D-1. I bet if you look at Garces' enrollment numbers over the last 5 years you will see that number declining not increasing. With that said, what is done is done. Now it is time to just play it out and see what happens! 

[WHODATT]

[bksflddan]

The next two years will be an interesting ride for all concerned ...

Maybe a lesson learned ...

Or continued work in progress ... regress ... distress ...

Play football! Safe season!

[bksflddan]

[WHODATT]

De La Salle enrollment is 1,039 ALL BOYS. St. John Bosco is more comparable at 758 co-ed, but with the distinction of existing in a demographic of 6 million people!!!

[WHODATT]

[flexmac3]

De La Salle enrollment is 1,039 ALL BOYS. St. John Bosco is more comparable at 758 co-ed, but with the distinction of existing in a demographic of 6 million people!!!

Once the Rams get those De La Salle/St. John Bosco type kids, enrollment wont matter

based off whats been posted, Garces would be D2 in the CIF Private School division, and D1 in CIF-CS :)

[flexmac3]

[Sideline]

 
Does anyone know if the CIF considered the health and safety issues of moving a School with only 35 players that go out for varsity football into Division 1? I always thought that El D got screwed, but it clearly looks like the CIF and Crichlow have been pretty vindictive towards Garces over the filing of Coach Maples' lawsuit.

[Sideline]

[flexmac3]

Does anyone know if the CIF considered the health and safety issues of moving a School with only 35 players that go out for varsity football into Division 1? I always thought that El D got screwed, but it clearly looks like the CIF and Crichlow have been pretty vindictive towards Garces over the filing of Coach Maples' lawsuit.

If you want to throw EL D in your Garces agenda, see Liberty/Centennial 8)

[flexmac3]

[Neutered_Ram]

Garces should do OK. They may even surprise some so called powers.  Sideline does make an interesting point about additional injuries and concussions. That was the same argument USC made because of lack of depth due to loss of scholarships.

[Neutered_Ram]

[flexmac3]

Garces should do OK. They may even surprise some so called powers.  Sideline does make an interesting point about additional injuries and concussions. That was the same argument USC made because of lack of depth due to loss of scholarships.

I do not think sideline has a good argument at all, Garces should be in D1, and personally I believe Garces will be fine.

Garces has the whole city, to " legally "  get some some students to play football. Its solely a Garces problem.

[flexmac3]

[TeddyKGB]

I see moving teams up a division, like Kingsburg & garces, because they are "too successful" at the division they are in that is based on their school population as watering down the divisions. Getting rid of the tougher teams so that the other guys have an oppurtunity to win, I don't see why you take a team that belongs in D2 or 3 bump them up and make them a middle of the road team. I understand that things change, like demographics and population, if think the CIF should review division alignments every 5 or 10 years not every stinkin' year!

As for garces suprising any "so called powers", who do you believe garces will surprise? BHS, I doubt that. Clovis North, doubtful, Clovis, not likely...what power? I sure hope you don't believe anyone considers Liberty, Centennial or Stockdale a power.

[TeddyKGB]

[valleynative]

Cbeds are one factor, but doesn't CIF take into consideration, Wins/Losses? 

[valleynative]

[GoldenHawksFootball]

Plenty of negatives to dwell on with this debate. You can insert a few schools each year into the, "why are they in this division again?" The way the system is set up, there will always be sour grapes, unhappy schools, parents, etc. that feel victimized due to success at lower divisions. There is no perfect system. Do you expect to be successful at a job and not expect to receive a promotion? Do you expect to maintain mediocrity never changing positions or raising your income levels? The CIF believes this system provides more schools more chances at success. Equal Opportunity! Not the way I'd go about it but I can accept why they think this way. The system simply equals less complaining from schools, parents, etc. Let's appease a higher percentage of schools. I call it a holistic (liberal) approach as opposed to a capitalistic approach of working hard, keeping what you earn, not believing trophies are won based on your divisional draw but the amount of work you put forth. Many of us on this site like to think we could create a perfect system by combining 6 divisions into 3 or 4. That will never happen because we are the status quo. We don't make the rules. No matter the system you'll always have a school on the bottom of however many divisions crying foul every year. The current system doesn't make any sense from a school population stand point. But if you based it just on school populations, the Garces, BCHS, Centennial/Liberty would be dominating ever year. And you'd have big schools who struggled to field athletes like- McLane, Fresno, Arvin, getting shellacked every year. I propose for those schools to make a division, a level itself. As for the gentleman that said less students equals less D1 caliber talent. Simply not true! This is not an apples to apples argument. Wouldn't Arvin generate more D1 talent than Garces, a school 4 times less the size of Arvin? More students equal more talented athletes right? NO! Who has better athletic programs? Arvin or Garces? All schools are not equal. You have the whole private/public issue, but you have other things like tradition, family history, demographics, programs/facilities, etc. Parents more than ever before are moving to and sending their kids to the high school they believe their kid has the best opportunity to win.

In my opinion I believe the current system of which the CIF operates is reactionary. Some may say it is over-reactionary. Some say change it every 5 years, keep the same schools in for 5 years. To me if this is the system we must embrace, it doesn't move fast enough. Thus, reactionary. Certain schools like a Garces might have 3-4 fantastic years with superb athletes and never get moved up during that time. Same with BCHS. Then when CIF says it's time to move up, they have 3-4 years where the talent doesn't measure up. And this is where things tend to break down. To the schools like BHS, Clovis North, Central, Clovis it doesn't really matter because the talent pool at these schools doesn't really change too much from 1 year to the next. I thought Garces and Ridgeview should have moved up years ago. Washington Union, the year with Greenberry could have won D2 or D3 that year. But due to a reactionary system they were in D4. BCHS is a team that I believe could compete at D2, even D1. Next year after, maybe not. But they like Garces will be bumped up again. I believe El Diamante has been bumped back and forth because D1 can't fill out a decent bracket. There's not enough schools that want to participate against BHS and the Clovis schools. Perhaps they know what's coming. Perhaps they like winning trophies at lower levels. Nevertheless, they are where the CIF places them. Like it or not, it is what it is.. The best thing about this is Garces gets a great opportunity to play the very best & strongest division in the Central Valley. That's reason alone to accept the challenge. As Buster Douglas said, "Shock the World."

[GoldenHawksFootball]

[Sideline]

Excellent post GHF. It addressed all of my questions. Thanks

[Sideline]

[Whoson1st]

I see moving teams up a division, like Kingsburg & garces, because they are "too successful" at the division they are in that is based on their school population as watering down the divisions. Getting rid of the tougher teams so that the other guys have an oppurtunity to win, I don't see why you take a team that belongs in D2 or 3 bump them up and make them a middle of the road team. I understand that things change, like demographics and population, if think the CIF should review division alignments every 5 or 10 years not every stinkin' year!

As for garces suprising any "so called powers", who do you believe garces will surprise? BHS, I doubt that. Clovis North, doubtful, Clovis, not likely...what power? I sure hope you don't believe anyone considers Liberty, Centennial or Stockdale a power.

uhhhh....I can think of 54 minuets of your life in 2012 that you were slack jawed and surprised as well as  all the others on the concrete bleacher side of Griffith. :shock:  Garces has given both c/n and bhs all they could handle in recent years. Garces is young like BHS was 2 years ago.  They will acquit themselves adequately in the future. :u:

[Whoson1st]

[valleynative]

Sooo...would Garces rather stay in a lower division? Or wou you rather they stay in a lower division?

[valleynative]

[flexmac3]

Sooo...would farces rather stay in a lower division? Or wou you rather they stay in a lower division?

Thanks valley, I like farces for Garces ;)

[flexmac3]

[valleynative]

Thanks valley, I like farces for Garces ;)

Hate when that happens. ;)

[valleynative]

[Patron]

I would let Garces be in any Division they wanted to be in if they would get rid of their announcer. :u:

[Patron]

[valleyfan]

I would let Garces be in any Division they wanted to be in if they would get rid of their announcer. :u:

Second that!!

[valleyfan]

[Dirtfarmer]

OK. I'll say it. "WELCOME TO DEEE ONE !!!" :u:

[Dirtfarmer]

[Coach Gutierrez]

OK. I'll say it. "WELCOME TO DEEE ONE !!!" :u:

Haha well played..  :u: (Not sure if everyone knows about that)

[Coach Gutierrez]

[mkb152]

I would let Garces be in any Division they wanted to be in if they would get rid of their announcer. :u:

Heck Ya!!

8)

[mkb152]

[izne1home]

Heck Ya!!

8)

Did Garces get the BHS guy?

[izne1home]

[TeddyKGB]

Did Garces get the BHS guy?

No, he just signed a 10 year contract.

[TeddyKGB]

[izne1home]

No, he just signed a 10 year contract.

I'd hope so.  He played a pivotal part in the 2007 VC game. 

[izne1home]

[bksflddan]

I'd hope so.  He played a pivotal part in the 2007 VC game. 

Geez Izne haven't the Drillers won a couple more since 07 and even another State title thrown in so the announcer guy probably got a lifetime contract just like Vin Scully ...

In fact he may have been around since about 1918, who knows what with CTA and game announcer unions!!!

[bksflddan]

[tailgator]

OK. I'll say it. "WELCOME TO DEEE ONE !!!" :u:

73-13 was your "WELCOMING TO DEEE TWO!!!"  ;)

GO RAMS!!!!!!!!!

[tailgator]

[valleyfan]

73-13 was your "WELCOMING TO DEEE TWO!!!"  ;)

GO RAMS!!!!!!!!!

yep that guy is a real class act.

[valleyfan]

[GoldenHawksFootball]

73-13 was your "WELCOMING TO DEEE TWO!!!"  Wink

GO RAMS!!!!!!!!!

So that justifies the comment?

[GoldenHawksFootball]